MODERATOR: Yes, but that is an attitude on the part of the person of the outside. What I was trying to have some more light on was this: a child grows up in an environment where in-so-far as his knowledge goes, he is in a heterosexual society. And if he suddenly begins to discover in himself a tendency which doesn't coincide with the family life and what he knows of the social life around him, isn't that in itself an opening wedge of fear and confusion, particularly when he may be afraid to turn to anyone else?

MRS. GAILEY: He feels that he is different, in quotation marks. MODERATOR: Yes, and people feel a sense of terror, almost, at the discovery of any major difference in their attitudes from that of the society surrounding them. I think that any human being has had that experience if they have gone off on their own in any direction,-religiously, philosophically, politically,—any way you like. So that, perhaps that is one of the factors which sets up the original difficulty for the individual.

DR. BAKER: That is very evident when you work with these individuals. They have been hurt so early in life by this persecutory attitude; they pick it up very quickly and they are very much afraid to share this outlook. They are even afraid that if they approach another potentially homosexual person they may be making a mistake. So, one of the first things that I do, in working with a person who has homosexual tendencies is to begin the process of self-acceptance in him. And as he accepts himself he becomes more relaxed and more comfortable, and then he can meet people on a more peaceful basis, and doesn't have to put on a lot of these mannerisms which are quite often the hostility showing,-his own reaction to this hostility from other people, which I have spoken of.

MODERATOR: Well, isn't this part and parcel, in a way, of our whole approach, not just our approach to the homosexual problem, but our approach to any problem which involves sex. Many heterosexual people have had their lives well wrecked by ignorance, by fear, by lack of communication with their families and the society around them. Isn't part of this problem a basic one of the whole social mores in regard to the sexual expression of life? DR. BAKER: That is what I stress, that homosexuals are people, too. They are just persons, and these problems are not just a matter of the homosexual's problems, but are the problems of anyone that deviates from the accepted standards. I believe that holds true, not only for sexual problems, but for anybody who differs in their viewpoints even. We are such products of habit and herd instinct, so to speak, that we have this reaction.

MODERATOR: I think we are still not at the root of the thing perhaps, because I go back to my original idea of there really being two problems involved here. One is the attitude of society toward a given situation. The other is the problem of the individual involved. And it certainly seems to me mattachine REVIEW

that they are different problems, because whether society is going to consider that any deviation from the sexual norm is a crime, or whatever it is, still the individual involved finds himself in a minority, and that in itself presents some problems. Supposing society accepts this manifestation of life and there is no persecution, there are no laws against it, or anything like that, it still is a minority situation in which the individual finds himself with certain things which seem to me, at least, to be intrinsic to the thing itself. Do you feel that it would be a satisfactory way of life for the individual if there were no social pressures?

MRS. GAILEY: Very definitely, they are very happy in it.

MR. CALL: It could be a very satisfactory way of life. I'm not intending to say that it is the satisfactory way of life, at all. Along the line of what you just mentioned, we have recognized that this is a two-fold problem in our work in the organization. Primarily the Mattachine Society is an educational organization and we are directing our educational work in two ways: one, toward the individual himself, that is, to the homosexual individual, so that he may learn what he is and understand and accept himself for what he is and we, in this work, do not stress any idea of his having a disease, or that there is necessarily a cure for it, or that there is even a need for a cure for it. We say that he should adapt himself to his lot in life and live the most responsible and upstanding kind of life possible with this thing as a part of his nature. Otherwise we direct our educational work toward the public in general to get the public to understand that homosexuals are among us, and as Dr. Baker says, they are people, and they must be accepted and understood for what they are. Because we know through studying the lives of many great people who have been known to be homosexual, that homosexual people, just as everyone else, have a great deal to offer to our culture, and if the individual doesn't have to be a wary, sly fox, living a double existence all the time, he can turn himself loose and call upon his creative and productive talents and do a great deal for our culture.

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MRS. GAILEY: If you are looking for one basic cause of homosexuality in the individual,as Dr. Baker pointed out at first, there have been so many wide variations in that very thing,-I don't think it has ever been settled, or found out, exactly what it is. There are just as many proofs, if you want to call it that, of its being inherent as there are of its being acquired through early training.

MODERATOR: Could it not be both, in different instances?

MRS. GAILEY: It could easily be both. And there are just as many causes, probably, as there are individuals.

MODERATOR: Nobody can see you nod, Dr. Baker. (laughter)